Comments on Seduction Central: Using astrology to get who you want

You're a smart man. Yes, envisioning and acquirin...

2007-12-19T04:28:00.000-05:00

You're a smart man. Yes, envisioning and acquiring, asking and receiving, would work for any believer of positive intention, as these laws are universal like gravity. It doesn't matter what label people wear in terms of their school of philosophy or religious association. What matters is the motive behind the request. Ideally the Christian motive is pure; the religious, humanitarian or personal motive may or may not be, depending on the individual's inner core and motivation at the time of the request.

Thank you for clarifying this, it is an important point.

I disagree that "The Secret" neglects motivation. ...

2007-12-18T17:18:00.000-05:00

I disagree that "The Secret" neglects motivation. The first step requires that one asks with gratitude. It does not make sense that a person can hold a carnal desire in their mind while expressing gratitude from their heart. Recognizing God as your deity, Christ as your Savior, the Holy Spirit in your life and expressing that as gratitude naturally robs any false desires of their hold on you. I know this because I have experienced it first hand.

Perhaps what you find offensive is that "The Secret" suggests that anyone can experience this no matter what religion or practise they follow?

Christian prayer is aligning your thoughts and min...

2007-12-18T15:16:00.000-05:00

Christian prayer is aligning your thoughts and mind, which is the womb to your soul, with the thoughts and mind of God. It often leads to stark revelations which add to weeping which culminates in joy in the morning, and the fulfillment of God's will in your life which may or may not be to our liking. He provides us with what we need, not what we want.

No matter how much we pray for it.

"The Secret" is brilliant "truth" insomuch that it capitulates on the premise of thought changing reality. However it neglects to focus on the motivation that fuels that thought.

In New Age thinking, the motivation is ME ME ME. In the teachings of Christ the motivation is "not my will, but Thine, oh Lord my God"

Even if you have to sweat blood and tears in the Garden of Gethsemane.

The pure channel of prayer inspires upon us what to pray for, and produces results, in His time and not necessarily overnight. However if we are inspired to pray for a desired outcome of our own selfish motivations (ie) a man desires a certain woman for a lover, or a woman desires a certain sum of money to purchase a certain pair of shoes . . .

"surely, thou shalt NOT be disappointed"

That my friend is manipulation of the energies of the universe to fulfill a carnal purpose, and that, is perversion of the power of prayer. You are correct in that PRAYER CHANGES THINGS. If it was He who inspired the change.

Labeling "The Secret" propaganda is the lie. As a ...

2007-12-18T14:22:00.000-05:00

Labeling "The Secret" propaganda is the lie. As a teaching it can be traced back to not only Hermetic and Gnostic thought, but Christian teachings as well. If we cannot alter our reality with our thoughts through a connection with the sacred, then tell me what is prayer?

"The Secret" is popular New Age propoganda. Like ...

2007-12-17T22:35:00.000-05:00

"The Secret" is popular New Age propoganda. Like "What the Bleep Do We Know" it is cleverly designed to make the individual believe he/she can control the outcome of a situation by simply observing it from a distance and adjusting the thought process.

While there is a basis of truth in this theory, unfortunately there is a strong element of truth in the best lie. After all, the serpent, the subtle of all the creatures in the garden, told Eve the truth, with the exception of one word:

"Ye shall NOT surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Well, he was right. Except for one word, and that makes all the difference.

I recommend everyone read the book, "The Secret". ...

2007-12-17T12:32:00.000-05:00

I recommend everyone read the book, "The Secret". (How to manifest your desires.) I seldom take what astrology says for gospel,and encourage people to look further....

Well spoken, and you're absolutely right! Thanks ...

2007-11-22T15:29:00.000-05:00

Well spoken, and you're absolutely right! Thanks Lucia, and God bless.

(Leo + Libra is a very good match by the way)

"Libra's amorous playfulness blends marvelously with Leo's dash and energy. Leo's generous, expansive sensuality really lights Libra's fire, and the thermometer moves up to torrid. Libra does have to approach Leo carefully on matters involving ego, but that won't be a problem for tactful Libra. In a real conflict, Libra knows how to yield gracefully. Together they share a love of luxury, going to parties, and creating a beautiful home that serves as a stage set for these two stars."

- Joanna Martine Woolfolk, author of "Sexual Astrology"

Ahhh, now I understand the connection!I appreciate...

2007-11-20T01:38:00.000-05:00

Ahhh, now I understand the connection!

I appreciate your keen analysis of my situation with the Scorpio.

A couple of details, though: I don't believe in using astrology to "get" who you want...I believe in using astrology to ATTRACT who you want. The distinction is substantive and essential.

Second, and most importantly, all seductions are not doomed unions between mismatched species. Some are mutually satisfying and pleasurably connections between compatible people. Your "do you really want to go there" argument is (alas) pretty damn persuasive when it comes to my particular depressing fixation on a Scorpio...but that doesn't mean that astrological tips for attracting someone's interest can't be wonderfully helpful for, say, an Aries man trying to compete with three other Aries men, a Gemini and a Sag for the affections of a Leo woman.

When I first met my Libra ex, we both experienced love (or, huge infatuation) at first sight...but we were both coy about it and a little bit "hard to get"...it wasn't a waste of time and energy at all. Rather, it was the kind of titillating play that Leos love.

Re: me and the Scorpio--I should clarify that he came over here because I invited him, and he gave me lots of signals that night that he doesn't see me as a potential sexual partner...like suggesting twice that I should get back together with my ex (and believe me, I did NOT bring up my ex.) He really might have been there not to research an interest in me, but because he views me as a friend. And as for seeing if I would "seal the deal"--his whole thing of firmly telling me to go back to my ex, not touching me and not even really coming near me...all through that long talk with our eyes locked...for hours...well, I INVITED HIM OVER, brought alcohol into the mix, and was as subtly sexy as I could be. It was so clear I would "seal the deal." (Also--he clearly has no desire to "get to the point"--the guy is GLACIAL. Taurus Rising. And he's confused. He's a mess of contradictions, with this weird emotional lag time that means if I say something in March, he responds in June.) He has so many wonderful qualities, but if he IS attracted to me, he's really being kind of a weenie.

You're right that this is no fun.

I keep deciding to get over my feelings for him. And then I see him again, and it all comes flooding back, and I find myself on an astrology forum obsessing about him. I know that obsession says unflattering things about me...but it doesn't mean that I view him as an object or that I want to "get" him, and it certainly shouldn't imply that I would ever want to manipulate or trick someone into...well, anything.

The situation--mostly, my own feelings--has caused me pain, and I've wanted to explore every possible option for how to deal with it. But, god help me, one rotten unrequited thing between a Lioness and an insect should not be used as an argument against the delights of seduction, in general.

I maintain that astrological tips, used with a spirit of compassion, fun, love and respect, can help a shy Virgo delight a hard-to-get Taurus by bringing her pie, and that such a pursuit is not a waste of valuable energy!

Victoria, I think the heiroglyphics show up if you...

2007-11-19T22:03:00.000-05:00

Victoria, I think the heiroglyphics show up if you use "smart quotes" instead of straight quotes (without the curve).

Why is it everytime there's supposed to be an apos...

2007-11-19T19:57:00.000-05:00

Why is it everytime there's supposed to be an apostrophe an Egyptian hieroglyphic shows up instead

(can't blame it on Mercury retrograde since he started behaving himself on the 17th)

I suppose we could explain these fiascos by blaming the energies at play in the universe for sure, as per Jeff in a previous blog, and the following excerpt (Rob Tillett, editor and publisher of Astrology on the Web, has written many articles. Rob lives in the Southern Highlands of New South Wales, on the east coast of Australia).

"At 04:01 UT (Universal Time), on Friday, Oct. 12, 2007, Mercury, the cosmic trickster, turns retrograde in Scorpio, the sign of the Scorpion, sending communications, travel, appointments, mail and the www into a general snarlup! Once again, it's one of those tricky time zone issues, as in the Americas it happens late on the 11th! This awkward period begins a few days before the actual turning point (as Mercury slows) and lasts for three weeks or so, until November 1, when the Winged Messenger reaches his direct station. At this time he halts and begins his return to direct motion through the zodiac."

"Everything finally straightens out on November 17, as he passes the point where he first turned retrograde. Mercury turns retrograde three times a year, as a rule, but the effects of each period differ, according to the sign in which it happens (see box for Retrograde Periods in 2007)."

"A planet is described as retrograde when it appears to be moving backwards through the zodiac. According to modern science, this traditional concept arises in the illusory planetary motion created by the orbital rotation of the earth, with relation to other planets in our solar system. Planets are never actually retrograde or stationary, they just seem that way, due to this cosmic shadow-play."

"Retrograde periods, although often problematic for us earthlings, are not particularly uncommon. Each planet retrogrades, except the Sun and Moon. Although a powerful astrological influence, Mercury is quite a small planet that travels at a relatively fast speed through the zodiac. Despite being the closest planet in our solar system to the Sun, it is not always in the same sign as the Sun (for example, this time Mercury turns in Scorpio while the Sun is in Libra but heads back into Libra just as the Sun strides into Scorpio)."

www.astrologycom.com/mercret.html

by the way, the little bugger was retrograde in Scorpio, of all signs ;)

Thanks Jeff, sorry I was too impatient and sleepy ...

2007-11-19T19:01:00.000-05:00

Thanks Jeff, sorry I was too impatient and sleepy to go into detail earlier. Well, then, I'll expound now for the benefit of all concerned.

Lucia, let’s set the record straight. Please hear this one out, as I’ve read what you said twice now, and analyzed it in typical Sun in Scorpio Venus in Virgo fashion.

(1) The man is very attracted to you. You are a lovely intelligent young blonde woman with a noteworthy bustline and that special brand of Leo warmth, extroversion and generosity of spirit. Most men wouldn’t hesitate at the opportunity to have sex with you. This you already know.

(2) The man spent six hours in your home at close proximity, sharing intimate thoughts and asking intimate questions. He enjoyed the wine (but didn’t get drunk, hoping you might), stayed in perfect control, looked into your eyes, and hypnotized you with his intriguing presence. In so doing he confused you to no end. This we already know.

(3) The man has sun in Scorpio, but as all humans are complex beings there are other things going on his chart of course. If you haven’t already done so, take his chart and yours, progress them to the evening of your interaction, and look for where (a) his ruling planet Pluto hits you, and (b) where your ruling planet the Sun hits him. Then look for where the ruler of his Ascendant hits you, and vice versa. Then look for the red squares (challenges) and blue trines (harmony). If there are reasonable grounds, after performing this study, for you to pursue this relationship in the hopes of eventually reaching a mutually satisfying union, then by all means, pursue it.

And by pursue, I mean on his terms. You know your terms, but consider his. You’ve read enough about male Scorpios to know what these terms are.

The clash and chemistry betwixt the squaring of the Leo/Scorpio Suns is a power struggle, the essence of which is the motivation of ego needs. You as a Leo, need to impress. He, as a Scorpio, needs to control. You need to feel admired, appreciated, adored. He needs to feel like there’s something (or someone) he can get his teeth into.

My guess is he’s spent as many hours (if not more) analyzing your behaviour as you have his. He came over to research this interest further, and to see if you would seal the deal. Scorpio, as we know, likes to get to the point. The point being the usual Scorpio thing, sex and power.

Simply put, he wants to play you like a fiddle, to get some beautiful music out of you. You being the instrument, with him as master manipulator—and not in a negative sense necessarily. He could if he wanted, bring out the best in you, if you would play along in his orchestration of fantasies with him as conductor. I’m not so sure you would feel comfortable with these fantasies, were they to be played out.

Your fine magestic Leo dignity will not stoop so low as to be “played.” You’re a healthy self-respecting Leo and this is good. But since you’ve been in contact with this seductive fellow, you’ve experienced an unhealthy obsession. He controls you emotionally through a carefully controlled passive-aggression, which is in effect only a Scorpionic self-defence strategy. He feels deeply and has to protect his own interests after all.

So, when all is said and done, is this relationship worthy of pursuit? Leo/Scorpio dramas/intrigues seldom are, unless there are other planetary aspects at work in your synastry to balance out the challenges of that potent Sun-square.

And remember, Fire (Leo) + Water (Scorpio) = Steam. Very hot. Please note the tearful testimonies of the various Leo men on this site who have been seriously scalded by Scorpio women. Yours truly here, pleads guilty. And it works both ways!

Do you really want to go there?

P.S. Contrary to popular belief, I do feel your predicament, and deeply. Chiron in Pisces and Cancer rising allows me that. I’ve fallen for a couple of Moon in Scorps who drove me to distraction with the powerplays (we are so much alike, them and I). It’s unintentional, and we weren’t out to get each other, but we did. Ending in a silent stalemate. Too many of the same moves, and nobody wins.

Conversely, Leo/Scorp relationship checkmates are generally more explosive, punctuated by a grand finale of fireworks vs bubble bubble toil and trouble. Guess who wins.

Again, do you really want to go there?

(the previously posted and since deleted by me for being too forward is the controversial page 69 of “Elegance”-- a brilliantly illustrated metaphor of the grand Leo/Scorpio showdown, case in point, and none too pretty)

And in closing, this is relevant to the discussion because Lucia feels you can use astrology as a tool to get who you want, and she could be right. I feel, and perceive that Jeff feels, that this is a waste of valuable time and precious energy, as astrology is best used as a tool for understanding what is, was, and could be.

(besides, once you get the object of your affection, you might not want him after all)

Victoria, I generally don't find it helpful when y...

2007-11-19T15:56:00.000-05:00

Victoria, I generally don't find it helpful when you include a link without providing a clear explanation for why you are doing so. As you often share your valuable astrological insight elsewhere, please explain the relevance of these links. Otherwise, you are not contributing to the discussion.

After cutting and pasting and rearranging the link...

2007-11-19T14:34:00.000-05:00

After cutting and pasting and rearranging the link a little, I come up with the forum topic "Leo-Scorpio."

So--still very confused. This is a blog post about the regressive quality of objectifying another person and wanting to "get" them, and how using astrology to that end is not the same as using astrology as a tool to better understand other's differing communication styles. In my comments, I raise the question of what "seduction" actually is.

Please clarify--with a description--what any of this has to do with Leo-Scorpio Sun sign compatibility, or with the links you provided (if I'm perhaps missing something more revelent in the links.)

Both of those links lead me to a "page not found" ...

2007-11-19T14:16:00.000-05:00

Both of those links lead me to a "page not found" page.

PS--http://seductioncentral.ning.com/forum/topic/s...

2007-11-19T03:06:00.000-05:00

PS--

http://seductioncentral.ning.com/forum/topic/
show?id=797208%3ATopic%3A52&page=1&commentId=
797208%3AComment%3A25668󂨘Comment25668

and it's midnight in Vancouver right now, not 3:00 am for goodness sake

has Mercury gone retrograde again or something?

Oh my!http://seductioncentral.ning.com/forum/topic...

2007-11-19T03:00:00.000-05:00

Oh my!

http://seductioncentral.ning.com/forum/topic/show?
id=797208%3ATopic%3A18002&page=4&commentId=797208%3
AComment%3A23901󂨘Comment23901

What's not to understand?

;)

Me neither, please Victoria do explain how these o...

2007-11-18T21:36:00.000-05:00

Me neither, please Victoria do explain how these other blog posts relate to this one.

I don't understand the connection between those li...

2007-11-18T17:23:00.000-05:00

I don't understand the connection between those links and this blog/ discussion topic.

http://jeffreykishner.com/astrology/love/2007/02/w...

2007-11-17T23:27:00.000-05:00

http://jeffreykishner.com/astrology/love/2007/02/
why-leo-woman-cannot-win-over-scorpio.html

http://jeffreykishner.com/astrology/love/2007/08/
scorpio-man-wont-date-leo-woman-but-hes.html

here we go again ;)let's refer to some precedents,...

2007-11-17T23:21:00.000-05:00

here we go again ;)

let's refer to some precedents,
as history has a way of repeating itself

http://jeffreykishner.com/astrology/love/2007/08/scorpio-man-wont-date-leo-woman-but-hes.html

http://jeffreykishner.com/astrology/love/2007/02/why-leo-woman-cannot-win-over-scorpio.html

no offence intended, none taken!

"Seduction" can refer to many things. It always m...

2007-11-17T11:44:00.000-05:00

"Seduction" can refer to many things. It always means tempting or enticing someone, but it doesn't necessarily mean tempting or enticing someone against their best interests. For example, my friend is deciding whether to study Latin or German--if he is seduced by a professor to study an ancient language instead of a modern one, or vice versa--or seduced by the beauty of the language itself--that might be a wonderful, positively life-changing thing, truly in his best interests. That's a totally valid use of the word. Or, let's say Jeffrey and I have a disagreement about the inevitability of unrequited love, and one of us is seduced by the other's argument...that could be quite a good thing, broadening our perspective.

To me, a world-class sexual seduction involves luring, enticing and delighting someone into doing what he or she already desperately wanted to do anyway...and making it all the more thrilling for having tempted them into into it.

Seduction in a sexual context means getting someone to have sex with you. It does not automatically carry the connotation of sexual deception that you're giving it. I mean, once I "seduced" my partner of several years by taking him into a cornfield and unbuttoning my dress--he said he was worried that someone would see us, but actually he was thrilled--being able to protest was part of the fun. My point being that there can be a "seduction" in the midst of a deep, committed relationship in which sex is only one of many elements. A friend said of his wife recently, teasingly, "She seduced me into marrying her with those innocent eyes of hers." You absolutely can seduce someone into opening up to you romantically or emotionally, with the aim of exploring a committed, and not merely sexual, relationship.

For many, the thrill of being tempted, teased and cajoled is basically foreplay. The feeling of succumbing to temptation can be sweet.

The connotations that you're describing to the word "seduction" are partly rooted in a social history of sexual control and moral policing, wherein chastity was something you were supposed to hold onto and battle for. And the word certainly CAN refer to sexual deception, but it could also refer to luring and tempting someone to warm up to you in a lovely and romantic way.

But Lucia, "seduction" is not about warming up to ...

2007-11-17T03:33:00.000-05:00

But Lucia, "seduction" is not about warming up to someone and helping him or her warm up to you in some lovely and/or romantic way.
Seduction *is* about enticing someone; overcoming them to do what is not in their best interests--especially if it is indeed sexual, then it refers to *not* getting to know her or him, but saying lovely and sexy things and applying your knowledge of human nature or the person's nature to have a sexual experience with them--with usually not much else besides the affair in mind.

Definitely.I would say that I also find the astrol...

2007-11-17T02:47:00.000-05:00

Definitely.

I would say that I also find the astrology of seduction both appealing and objectionable. Although, it's the pop astrology part of it, rather than the seduction part, that's a guilty pleasure for me. I have a problem with typologies (and advanced astrology is more dynamic and complex and less typological), so I wonder why I get such joy out of talking about Sun signs and reading tips on "How to get a Cancer to Call".

I also love reading self-help books, how-to lists and guidebooks on nearly every subject, and I often ignore the advice.

Maybe it's my 8th house Sun, Mercury and Mars? A love of research?

I feel thwarted in my guilty love of Sun Signs AND in my adoration of tips when I request a bulleted list of tips on "How to Seduce an Aquarius?" and someone responds with bland platitudes instead.

So I am glad to know that the writer of an astrology blog called "Seduction Central" is not averse to offering posts like "How to get a Cancer to call."

In terms of the deeper issues raised in this post--and it really is good food for thought, one of my favorite of your posts--I do think that most people looking for tips on a site like yours are less trying to "get" somebody, like getting a shiny new bike, and more struggling to navigate communication issues with someone who's already confusing them--less in a NLP-type way, and more to avoid a terrible faux pas. There is an element of game-playing to seduction--tempting and enticing--and that's not the same as using, objectifying or controlling.

And yet I've written posts like "How to get a Canc...

2007-11-16T23:33:00.000-05:00

And yet I've written posts like "How to get a Cancer man to call." I am too mutable to be pinned down. Maybe I find the astrology of seduction both appealing and objectionable. Or that I am intrigued with the fine line where one crosses over from one side to the other. Can you agree that most people have a "line," but that we have it at different points along a continuum?

Hi! It's not just a catchy title, it's a catchy--...

2007-11-16T19:23:00.000-05:00

Hi! It's not just a catchy title, it's a catchy--and seductive!!--idea.

"Seduction Central" DOES sound like the name of a blog about "how to get a Capricorn interested in you" (and the like)...but in this post, and others, it reads to me like you agree with Victoria ("Astrology is a tool, best used to understand the one you have (and are) rather than get the one you want.")

Yet seduction is all about enticing "the one you want."

I'm saying that your blog title makes it sound like you're a huge advocate of seduction tips specifically, not just tips for using astrology to use another person's language to connect with them...and your recent posts make it sound like you find the very idea of an astrology of seduction objectionable.