Comments on Becky's T-Blog: Unhealthy obsession

Ouch, Stephanie!I'm still not convinced.

2006-08-02T22:32:00.000+01:00

Ouch, Stephanie!

I'm still not convinced.

Yes, Penny, you have completely missed the point. ...

2006-07-21T12:42:00.000+01:00

Yes, Penny, you have completely missed the point. Your introduction of Joe Orton is irrelevant. What we are talking about here are the tranny groups on flickr and in that context I think we have every right to expect that the pictures posted there are of trannies. Otherwise, why bother? Whether or not some of the photos are good enough to deceive anyone is neither here nor there. The person being discussed in this thread was not engaged in some art prank or making an illuminating cultural intervention or raising interesting questions about identity and deception. He was simply some sad and cowardly bloke putting up pictures of somebody else and pretending they are of him. In the context of flickr tranny groups that's pretty insulting and rather pathetic.

Oh, and you might find yourself stumbling through life a little less if you abandon the moral relativism.

Doh! Have I completely missed the point of this S...

2006-07-20T22:52:00.000+01:00

Doh! Have I completely missed the point of this Siobhan? I'll re-read this thread and this time I'll look at the words. Seriously though, if I could pass as a genetic woman, that would be the greatest thing in my life, but it would be a deception. Who am I to judge others who are deceiving people. In the 1960's the gay playwright Joe Orton and his partner took books out of their local library and altered them, changing the content and dust jackets. What they did would now be considered to be art in the manner of Banksy and others. what is the line between a prank that illuminates an otherwise hidden part of our culture, and an offensive lie?

Beats me! I'm just some poor tranny who stumbles through life the best she can.

Yep, looks like that's the answer to the email I s...

2006-07-20T22:10:00.000+01:00

Yep, looks like that's the answer to the email I sent him/her.

Well, a certain someone is now no longer active on...

2006-07-20T22:08:00.000+01:00

Well, a certain someone is now no longer active on Flickr...

Perhaps I don't have "her" as a contact. Who is it...

2006-07-20T17:41:00.000+01:00

Perhaps I don't have "her" as a contact. Who is it?

And as for fake pics? I bloody hate them. I like many have worked hard on my look and do worry if I can come across as feminine. So when someone posts fake pics it's as if they are just taking the piss.

I'll think about it Alli'. At the moment I'm waiti...

2006-07-20T16:01:00.000+01:00

I'll think about it Alli'. At the moment I'm waiting for a reply to an email.

Becky, Isobel said, "dissenting comments are edite...

2006-07-20T13:18:00.000+01:00

Becky, Isobel said, "dissenting comments are edited out from her photostream", so she must be reading them. Have you thought of posting a "We're talking about you here" comment, with a link to this discussion?

> the lie that is central to all of this. Right, a...

2006-07-20T11:28:00.000+01:00

> the lie that is central to all of this.

Right, and that's the point. No matter how pretty the image, lies are ugly.

> "If a natal woman really wanted to present herse...

2006-07-20T01:12:00.000+01:00

> "If a natal woman really wanted to present herself to the world as a post-op MTF, how would that be different from what I do?"

That's a fair comment Penny, and an interesting question. But I don't think that's what's going on here.

Essentially, when I stick a photograph of me online, I'm asking people to suspend disbelief for a moment, take that picture of me, and judge it in an entirely different context (it's all about the context ;-) to what I'd normally present.

I'm saying "This is me. I'm a guy. But I'd like for you to judge me based on completely different criteria that if it was just a picture of me as a guy. I'd like you to judge me on how much I look like a woman"

I think the issue here - unless of course, there's a huge disproving of 'wrongness' - is contained in the word "me".

I don't think this is someone posting pictures and saying "This is me". I think it's someone posting pictures of someone else, and asking us to judge those images based on the same criteria that we all post pictures within.

Whether they're pictures of guys portraying themselves as women, or women portraying themselves as guys, or women portraying themselves as guys portraying themselves as women - I don't really think that matters.

The central core to them all is that they all deserve the tag "me". However we choose to present ourselves, it's always ourselves we choose to present.

The problems come when it's not ourselves in the photographs, That's when the "me" becomes the "other". And - I think - that's the lie that is central to all of this.

OK, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I wa...

2006-07-20T00:13:00.000+01:00

OK, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I was born male and I don't like it. When I dress it is to deceive the world into viewing me as female. I'm trying to fool people into thinking I'm something I'm not. OK, I'm not very good at it, but that isn't really the point, my dressing is about deception. If a natal woman really wanted to present herself to the world as a post-op MTF, how would that be different from what I do? She was born one thing and wanted to be somethng else. I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to do that but hey, there are lots of wierdos out there!

As for levels of perfection that I can never strive for, well the thing that is so hard to live with is just walking down the street and looking at the real women. If I'm down that is a terrible thing to do.

Give me a reason to think differently and I will

you know I'm not deliberately contentious when I p...

2006-07-19T21:41:00.000+01:00

you know I'm not deliberately contentious when I post on here don't you??

There's a really old cartoon from the New Yorker, which I've pinched and put on one of my web pages. I have thousands of photos of me. And about a dozen where I'm pleased with the result.

And three dressed as a bloke...

There are very few of my 'real photos' (ie 'grim') available for others to see. So, to a much lesser extent, the only 'honest' trannies are those who have candid photos that other people have taken while out and about?

My personal view is that Siobhan's comment Which leaves me with a rather more unpleasant thought, that the reasons behind it are to laugh at the 'gullibility' of strangers, and it's actually intended as quite malicious is sadly, closest to the truth.

Rallying against fake trannies is certainly one way forwards but I think that your web site and discussions like this on your blog are far more positive and powerful, as it's an environment where those people who are still struggling to find themselves can realise that they are not alone and aren't in a competition to be themselves. Discuss the fact that some of those fantastic photos, might actually be exactly what they appear to be.

And they can laugh out loud as they do so!

LOL, any trawl through the tranny groups will make...

2006-07-19T20:28:00.001+01:00

LOL, any trawl through the tranny groups will make you feel dirty, Steph. And don't pretend you don't enjoy it. ;-)

It's important because for me, and I'm sure for ma...

2006-07-19T20:24:00.000+01:00

It's important because for me, and I'm sure for many others, posting pictures online is part of a process of self-acceptance. If other people are posting fakes pictures it just makes us look cheap and our efforts to come out rather pointless.

However, Becky, I do think that if you were going to raise this issue you should have "named and shamed" the person. I can't have been the only one who went straight from here to trawl through the tranny groups on flickr to try and work out (without success) who you were referring to. It made me feel dirty.

I agree, it is bad for someone to post fake pics.N...

2006-07-19T17:19:00.000+01:00

I agree, it is bad for someone to post fake pics.

Not only they not showing themselves and tricking us all to beleive the person in that pic is someone which in reality is not.

But also, taking into account all the effort that it takes, to put make-up, wig, clothes, to try to look as girly as possible at the end.

And then see a photo, of someone who looks so feminine, thinking "Wow , how lucky of he, or what great skills he has", about a fake pic, is sad, is EVIL.

(I've been clicking on too many things at once, so...

2006-07-19T17:13:00.000+01:00

(I've been clicking on too many things at once, so this may already be posted...)

This reminds me of last year's unveiling of J.T. LeRoy, the author who wrote The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things, among other works. The writer who everyone believed was a 20-something, cross-dressing, recovering heroin addict, former prostitute and literary sensation was actually a woman in her 30s named Laura Albert.

"Without wanting to add too much to this discussio...

2006-07-19T16:11:00.001+01:00

"Without wanting to add too much to this discussion, I'd hate to see us using grounds like that for suspicion ;-) Especially considering the whole "stereotyping" discussions that have gone on recently."

Oops, yes Jane, slap wrist. ;-)

"because how can you turn compliments directed at ...

2006-07-19T16:09:00.000+01:00

"because how can you turn compliments directed at a fake you into self-praise?"

I think actually that they do somehow manage that, through some kind of highly selective view of reality.

"Which leaves me with a rather more unpleasant thought, that the reasons behind it are to laugh at the 'gulibility' of strangers, and it's actually intended as quite malicious"

That's the more disturbing option, and what I think Victius was referring to.

I just feel a lot better talking about this semi "out in the open", as I feel like I'm doing something more than gnashing my teeth at this person's audacity. :-)

> "Another thing about this person's pictures is t...

2006-07-19T15:56:00.000+01:00

> "Another thing about this person's pictures is that there are none of the classic tranny shots

Without wanting to add too much to this discussion, I'd hate to see us using grounds like that for suspicion ;-) Especially considering the whole "stereotyping" discussions that have gone on recently.

I was going to write something about being able to see the point to doing it - something along the lines of bumping up your self worth through the adoration of others ... but actually, thinking about it more, that's complete bollocks - because how can you turn compliments directed at a fake you into self-praise?

Which leaves me with a rather more unpleasant thought, that the reasons behind it are to laugh at the 'gulibility' of strangers, and it's actually intended as quite malicious

It's a case of someone who disagrees with the whol...

2006-07-19T15:31:00.000+01:00

It's a case of someone who disagrees with the whole matter and is trying to make the genuine ones feel inadequate.

@Nikki and Anonymous: I'm not going to give out th...

2006-07-19T13:03:00.000+01:00

@Nikki and Anonymous: I'm not going to give out the URL on here. If you're active on Flickr it's fairly easy to work it out for yourself who I'm talking about. If it's not... them maybe I'm wrong! :-)

@Steph: I KNEW it! ;-)

I've written a special application in Visual Basic...

2006-07-19T13:00:00.000+01:00

I've written a special application in Visual Basic that detects fake tranny pics. It was originally designed to tell the sex of cats, but then someone explained an easier way that doesn't need a computer.

Give us a URL and I'll get back to you with the Cat-Aware Personal Edition results.

I didn't really want to dredge all that up again R...

2006-07-19T12:55:00.000+01:00

I didn't really want to dredge all that up again Rachel, you've got your own opinion on it and that's fine. I still stand by my actions that day and I'd do it the same again if it happened tomorrow. It might have been the "kinder course", but it was the right course.

I disagree with your point about people gettting upset about things being unfair. It's got fuck-all to do with my improving own self esteem. And I take a different approach to life being unfair: I try to make it unfair for the person making it unfair for me.

For example: it's unfair to criticise me on my own blog about things that happened months ago. So I'll point that out to you, and delete any future messages on the subject. That's being quite unfair back.

@Isobel: I'm glad you've spotted her too.

There's always one, isn't there?Me, I see an attra...

2006-07-19T12:32:00.000+01:00

There's always one, isn't there?

Me, I see an attractive TV/TS and I'm full of admiration. I see a TV/TS who's not classically beautiful, but you just know has made a credible effort, and appreciate that.

But when I see 'fake' pics I get a mixture of feelings. One, I feel sorry if they have such a lack of self-worth that they feel the need to substitute pics.

Two, and maybe this is a bit weird given number one, it amuses me that the con hasn't worked.

Another thing, why do people get upset about it being unfair? Life's not fair - life never will be fair. Get working on your own self-esteem so that when you see these pics, true or false, you don't get upset about them.

And as for the Lana episode that really did bug me. I just wish Becky had said to Lana, 'If you don't take those pics down I'll blow the whistle, giving her the opportunity to avoid the humiliation.'

To me, Lana had real self-worth problems which drove her to do what she did (which I'm not condonning or condemning) but Becky didn't give her the opportunity to remove the pictures. Yes, I know Becky made it clear she'd sussed Lana, but by giving her forewarning of her intention to "expose" her if she didn't remove them, I feel, it would have been a kinder course of action.

BTW, great holiday thanks Bex - got the red bits to prove it!

Another thing about this person's pictures is that...

2006-07-19T11:45:00.000+01:00

Another thing about this person's pictures is that there are none of the classic tranny shots

And few shots that include the shoes... just not right I tell you!